查看完整版本 : 馬勒作品

ahmei 2008-9-1 11:09 PM

馬勒作品

[font=SimSun][size=11pt]對新手而言,沒想這麼快要聼馬勒的作品。在圖書館裏,無意間揀了出來。喜歡隨緣隨意,就把它借囘家。[/size][/font][size=11pt][/size]
[font=SimSun][size=11pt]先聼了半個樂章,感覺很[/size][/font][size=11pt][font=Times New Roman][[/font][/size][font=SimSun][size=11pt]怪雞[/size][/font][size=11pt][font=Times New Roman]][/font][/size][font=SimSun][size=11pt],不協調,要作對的樣子[/size][/font][size=11pt][font=Times New Roman]…….[/font][/size]
[font=SimSun][size=11pt]這幾天靜心細味,原來是一首很凄美的樂曲。[/size][/font][size=11pt][font=Times New Roman] [/font][/size][font=SimSun][size=11pt]脆弱孤清的高音小提琴旋律,溫柔、不屈、惶恐、活潑、狂亂、絕望、哀愁地游走於四個樂章裏,印象難忘。[/size][/font][size=11pt][/size]
[font=SimSun][size=11pt]第一樂章:很美的前奏,平靜如水,卻暗藏洶湧。凄美的小提琴旋律要逃避低音弦樂的吞噬,到處奔跑、驚呼、掙扎。可惜,低音聲部不理她,似乎還要玉石俱焚,至死方休。[/size][/font][size=11pt][/size]
[font=SimSun][size=11pt]第二樂章:追追逐逐如捉謎藏。[/size][/font][size=11pt][/size]
[font=SimSun][size=11pt]第三樂章:累透了卻停不得,走進歇斯底里[/size][/font][size=11pt][font=Times New Roman] [/font][/size][font=SimSun][size=11pt]的瘋狂狀態。[/size][/font][size=11pt][/size]
[font=SimSun][size=11pt]第四樂章:極慢的旋律,似徘徊在絕望中要妥協還是豁出去;從澎湃的弦樂[/size][/font][font=SimSun][size=11pt]中[/size][/font][font=SimSun][size=11pt]起起伏伏,找到了方向。即使氣若柔絲,吐盡最後一口氣,脆弱孤清的高音小提琴旋律,依然凄美、堅持[/size][/font][font=SimSun][size=11pt]、至死不渝[/size][/font][font=SimSun][size=11pt]……[/size][/font][size=11pt][/size]
[size=11pt][font=Times New Roman]~**~**~[/font][/size]
[font=SimSun][size=11pt]可以不用耳筒來聼就好了,第四樂章中段排山倒海的低音弦樂,令人覺得自己很渺小。[/size][/font][size=11pt][/size]
[font=SimSun][size=11pt]先聼這個:[/size][/font][size=11pt][/size]
[size=11pt][font=Times New Roman]Vienna Symphony Orchestra/Hermann Scherchen
1950 [/font][/size][font=SimSun][size=11pt]不錯的版本。[/size][/font][size=11pt][/size]
[font=SimSun][size=11pt]之後,再聼這些:[/size][/font][size=11pt][/size]
[size=11pt][font=Times New Roman]Sofia Philiharmonic Orchestra / Emil Tabakov
[/font][/size][font=SimSun][size=11pt]第四樂章最好,言不盡,意無限。差不多[/size][/font][size=11pt][font=Times New Roman]30[/font][/size][font=SimSun][size=11pt]分鐘。[/size][/font]


[size=11pt][font=Times New Roman]BBC Symphony Orchestra / Bruno Maderna
1971[/font][/size]

[font=Times New Roman][size=11pt]Israel[/size][size=11pt] Philiharmonic Orchestra / Paul Kletzki[/size][/font]
[size=11pt][font=Times New Roman][/font][/size]
[font=SimSun][size=11pt]大家也有其他版本嗎?[/size][/font][font=SimSun][size=11pt]感覺如何?[/size][/font]

[[i] 本帖最後由 ahmei 於 2011-10-8 12:45 AM 編輯 [/i]]

lula135 2008-9-1 11:15 PM

香港管弦樂團12月5,6日會奏呢首,記得買飛去聽呀:smile_38:
我實去:smile_22:

hpcywong 2008-9-1 11:29 PM

Mahler 9 is my favourite piece, I am glad that one more person has just discovered this precious treasure in the world of music.

Which lib do you borrow the discs from? Seems to me quite interesting and rare versions, and I only have Emil Tabakov's.

Noted recordings include:
Bruno Walter / Vienna Philharmonic
Otto Klemperer / New Philharmonia
Herbert von Karajan / Berlin Philharmonic (1982)
Gary Bertini / Kolner Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester
Claudio Abbado / Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester
Riccardo Chailly / Royal Concertgehouw Orchestra
Daniel Barenboim / Staatskappelle Berlin

Personally I prefer Bertini and Barenboim. Bertini's rendition is profound and Barenboim's is smooth.

[[i] 本帖最後由 hpcywong 於 2008-9-2 12:22 AM 編輯 [/i]]

ahmei 2008-9-1 11:45 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]hpcywong[/i] 於 2008-9-1 11:29 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=169813894&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
Mahler 9 is my favourite piece, I am glad that one more person has just discovered this precious treasure in the world of music.

Which lib do you borrow the discs from? Seems to me quite interestin ... [/quote]
多謝分享。
我也游走於花園街和油麻地圖書館。;P
未還碟呀。
EMIL TABAKOV 是否兩只的?第四樂章在另一只cd。
我以爲康文署入埋啲次貨,點解冇左一段架!
第二日,在油麻地重遇cd 2 。

ahmei 2008-9-1 11:47 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]lula135[/i] 於 2008-9-1 11:15 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=169811590&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
香港管弦樂團12月5,6日會奏呢首,記得買飛去聽呀:smile_38:
我實去:smile_22: [/quote]

有飛賣未呀?

gagger 2008-9-2 12:49 AM

I guess the climax of mahler 9 IV should be the last chord

personally i recommend Bertini and abbado (with BPO)........if you love american style, Bernstein and BPO may be your cup of tea

LouisLeeKH 2008-9-2 01:43 AM

[size=4]Barbirolli / BPO (1964) 係一致公認嘅 Top Version[/size]

斯人的黃昏 2008-9-5 12:48 AM

有版友想傾下Mahler Sym,好,升上來睇下有冇人幫襯:smile_41:

HelichrysumV 2008-9-5 12:53 AM

[quote]原帖由 [i]斯人的黃昏[/i] 於 2008-9-5 12:48 AM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170254701&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
有版友想傾下Mahler Sym,好,升上來睇下有冇人幫襯:smile_41: [/quote]
相信開咗就會有人出聲,但係要鎖定講邊首至得。

dominal2008 2008-9-5 01:03 AM

回覆 2# 的帖子

*** 作者被禁止或刪除 內容自動屏蔽 ***

dominal2008 2008-9-5 01:05 AM

*** 作者被禁止或刪除 內容自動屏蔽 ***

waichuen0 2008-9-5 10:52 AM

聽緊Bruno Walter / Vienna Philharmonic (1938)
呢隻我都係借番黎:lol
from my point of view, 馬九第一樂章同馬六第四樂章有D相似既主題, 類似hero不斷被打低又企番起身
成首馬九都係回應緊1-9唔同主題似的(只係個人感覺), 似係一個死亡之前既回顧

斯人的黃昏 2008-9-5 11:28 AM

[quote]原帖由 [i]HelichrysumV[/i] 於 2008-9-5 12:53 AM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170255367&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]

相信開咗就會有人出聲,但係要鎖定講邊首至得。 [/quote]
愚見綜合會好一些,一首For一帖,好易混亂,有版友喜歡Sym 1但不喜2,跟住叫佢去找或開 ?
不如咁,開三帖 Sym 1-3, 4-6 & 7-9,集中三個帖,總有一首在其中揀,又不至於"散收收".

ahmei 2008-9-5 12:48 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]斯人的黃昏[/i] 於 2008-9-5 11:28 AM 發表 [url=http://www30.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170288432&ptid=8006055][img]http://www30.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]

愚見綜合會好一些,一首For一帖,好易混亂,有版友喜歡Sym 1但不喜2,跟住叫佢去找或開 ?
不如咁,開三帖 Sym 1-3, 4-6 & 7-9,集中三個帖,總有一首在其中揀,又不至於"散收收". [/quote]

[font=SimSun][size=11pt]小女子愚見是一曲一帖。如柴五、貝九。日後有補充的話,可按有關曲目添加資料。不過,無論理性抑或感性,還是要大家樂於分享囖。(我係新手都唔怕醜咯!)聼齡多久沒問題,只聼過一個版本又如何。講出自家所聼所思所想,然後看看別的,又再試聼其他或重聽,可能今日的我,已不是昨日的我,感覺大不同。幾得意呀![/size][/font][size=11pt][/size]

e838 2008-9-5 02:17 PM

回覆 1# 的帖子

I got a couple M9: Karajan, Bernstein, Guilini & Walter.  

I like Bernstein one as I find his interpretation is beautiful.  Eg the opening soft celli, harp & horn bassline give a pretty good pulse and then there comes the semi-quaver viola which delivers the echo-ing effect pretty well. Then with the introduction of the first subject beautifully phrased by the horns, followed by the tutti together with the clarinet on the subject (again) 'hanging' on top of all these, Bernstein was putting his every attempt to 'beautify' this simple melodic introduction out of Mahler's musical genius.

What I don't like is probably Bernstein was too sentimental towards the end (last mvt) and it just slowed & soft to no-where like never-ending, even though Mahler marked 'langsam' all over the place.  Karajan finishing is more of my taste in this aspect.

However I hv heard tilson-thomas live in London, and that performance out of those M9 I went to was what I must say most touching personally, really couldn't help the tears, probably coz I was too lonely working alone in a foreign country for too long or his M9 just came in a perfect time to comfort the stress in work.  Not sure if there is a recording on MTT M9 but I doubt if it will be as good as the live one I went to.

gagger 2008-9-5 04:24 PM

回覆 15# 的帖子

which version of bernstein you are talking about? berlin or new york phil?

hpcywong 2008-9-5 09:06 PM

回覆 15# 的帖子

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-Hybrid-SACD/dp/B0007YMUFC[/url]

see the above site, MTT has released M9 with San Franciso Symphony, but it's quite expensive.
Live performance is of course far different from recording, that's why I am looking forward to de Waart's M9 in HK in Dec!

hpcywong 2008-9-5 09:11 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]dominal2008[/i] 於 2008-9-5 01:05 AM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170256656&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
How about Simon Ratttle version? On sale wor! [/quote]

Do you mean Rattle / BP? I acrquired it @ $98 from HK records, really quite cheap, of course a worthwhile acquisition but not creme de la creme

斯人的黃昏 2008-9-5 09:39 PM

Simon Ratttle有版有眼,未甚特出,是好但未必佳.

ahmei 2008-9-5 11:46 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]e838[/i] 於 2008-9-5 02:17 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170307916&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]

.....really couldn't help the tears....
... [/quote]
Woa...:') 。
前幾天,聼得多,上班時還想著那些旋律,也不能抽離。
我都係第一次聼馬勒咋,想不到會那麼投入 。
聼過一個版本,第四樂章,差不多30mins,最後幾句係越奏越細聲,真係沒完沒了。你覺得太煽情?

waichuen0 2008-9-6 12:33 AM

[quote]原帖由 [i]ahmei[/i] 於 2008-9-5 11:46 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170389368&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]

Woa...:') 。
前幾天,聼得多,上班時還想著那些旋律,也不能抽離。
我都係第一次聼馬勒咋,想不到會那麼投入 。
聼過一個版本,第四樂章,差不多30mins,[color=Red]最後幾句係越奏越細聲,真係沒完沒了[/color] ... [/quote]
無論馬九馬四, 我心目中的the one 既ending都應該要有呢個感覺:lol

至於上班時還想著那些旋律, 我之前番學都係, 上堂係個腦海度不斷出現, 一首馬六我應該可以背得出1/2(在腦海中)

HelichrysumV 2008-9-6 12:57 AM

要說一下 COA / Bernstein (1985)。
此版指揮處理得非常情緒化,咆哮時歇斯底里,寂靜時充滿了頹癈的吟哦,尤其是第四樂章,用了差不多三十分鐘,最後幾句由極慢速漸弱拖至無聲,那種無奈和意猶未盡真的很難形容。樂隊質數也極高,這是我聽過最煽情的版本之一。

hpcywong 2008-9-6 01:09 AM

[quote]原帖由 [i]ahmei[/i] 於 2008-9-5 11:46 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170389368&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]

Woa...:') 。
前幾天,聼得多,上班時還想著那些旋律,也不能抽離。
我都係第一次聼馬勒咋,想不到會那麼投入 。
聼過一個版本,第四樂章,差不多30mins,最後幾句係越奏越細聲,真係沒完沒了 ... [/quote]

我上次陪個朋友聽Mahler 9,佢又係第一次聽Mahler,佢聽到第二個樂章就頂唔順

ahmei 2008-9-6 01:18 AM

[quote]原帖由 [i]hpcywong[/i] 於 2008-9-6 01:09 AM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170402216&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]


我上次陪個朋友聽Mahler 9,佢又係第一次聽Mahler,佢聽到第二個樂章就頂唔順 [/quote]

頂唔順乜野先:smile_41: 咁好聼?

hpcywong 2008-9-6 02:04 AM

[quote]原帖由 [i]ahmei[/i] 於 2008-9-6 01:18 AM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170403292&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]


頂唔順乜野先:smile_41: 咁好聼? [/quote]

頂唔順又長又chum
雖然Mahler 9係我最喜歡既一個作品,但係我絕對唔會用"好聽"黎形容,因為成首symphony冇乜地方"悅耳"
我鍾意呢首作品既深刻意境

e838 2008-9-6 09:41 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]gagger[/i] 於 2008-9-5 04:24 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170323890&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
which version of bernstein you are talking about? berlin or new york phil? [/quote]

NY Phil, 80s DG recording.

e838 2008-9-6 10:06 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]hpcywong[/i] 於 2008-9-6 02:04 AM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170407871&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]


頂唔順又長又chum
雖然Mahler 9係我最喜歡既一個作品,但係我絕對唔會用"好聽"黎形容,因為成首symphony冇乜地方"悅耳"
我鍾意呢首作品既深刻意境 [/quote]

It is actually not what you find - and I understand your feeling because I found the same the first time I listened (probably in my early teens - actually I switched it off!!).  You have this feeling simply because the orchestration is too complex for you.  The complexity is quite different from classical period (Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn) and early romantic (like Brahms, Tch), where these work has one distinct melodic line to follow.  

Mahler got several melodic lines (or 'subject' is the right musical term) working TOGETHER and if you do not distinguish them separately, it will sound very strange or 冇乜地方"悅耳".  You have to find them, and they usually start from one subject in the beginning, then another new subject comes in a certain point, sometimes subtley at the background, and then another one on top of these, and sometimes re-appear at certain part, and so forth.

What I can suggest as part of the "game" when listening is try to find these 'subjects', remember them, and try to re-discover them (or their evolutions / development) throughout the symphony - sometimes even across several movements (and across several symphonies too!!)  You will be amazed.  Once you unfold the work this way, you will find it "好聽" and "悅耳".  Mahler work is much more than 意境.  I hope you can enjoy it more.

斯人的黃昏 2008-9-6 10:29 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]hpcywong[/i] 於 2008-9-6 01:09 AM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170402216&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]


我上次陪個朋友聽Mahler 9,佢又係第一次聽Mahler,佢聽到第二個樂章就頂唔順 [/quote]
Mahler sym唔係咁易聽架,如果事先冇聽過就貿貿然去聽,一係頂唔順,一係可以接受,一係喜歡.
尤其Mahler 9咁深,意義多重,初哥最不宜,頂唔順即係印像分打折扣,日後再遇到可能心有介蒂,如此就不好吧.

同埋人云亦云亦頗嚴重,Concert時常將Mahler Sym層次放到很大,非要不聽不可,唔聽有損失的感覺,
其實誤導了許多聽眾,造就了一窩蜂,但實則是否真的是喜歡呢 ?
好似凝造了HK是有許多懂聽的愛樂音 ? 實則不是.

斯人的黃昏 2008-9-6 10:44 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]hpcywong[/i] 於 2008-9-6 02:04 AM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=170407871&ptid=8006055][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]


頂唔順又長又chum
雖然Mahler 9係我最喜歡既一個作品,但係我絕對唔會用"好聽"黎形容,因為成首symphony冇乜地方"悅耳"
我鍾意呢首作品既深刻意境 [/quote]
Mahler Sym就是如此,沒有長長的章節豈能容得下宏大的心思意義 ?
不過你的理解很特別 - 不好聽,不悅耳但又鍾意.

ahmei 2008-9-6 11:17 PM

聼音樂和看電影,是講個人化的感覺, 從來都不想約人一同欣賞。我會投入另外一個世界,那有時間招呼同伴,尤其不是同道中人。
我當初聼的時候,都有同斯人師兄講聼緊一首馬勒的怪雞樂曲。在第一樂章,就一點都不和諧,那種重手落弓的弦樂,我覺得有點扭曲,刀割斷腸的感覺(好跨張)。不過,當中幾條旋律綫不論單獨或共同發展配合一起,都是好聽的。第二樂章算是平易近人了,不過,依然沒有我們聼慣那種柔過柔順劑的和諧感覺,但有性格囖。
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